Expresso

Fewer working hours, greater productivity, workers as partners, and an economy guided by imagination: DST’s vision combines management, a critical reading of the contemporary world, its best performance ever, and €66 million in investments in industrial buildings in Portugal.

Do you feel that Portugal is a very tense country, with a lot of hostility, especially at the political level?

 When I look at Spain, I think we live in a relative paradise. The things they say to one another and do to one another are absolutely extraordinary. I think we are even in a kind of ‘soft Portuguese’ mode, even with Chega, because perhaps it is also pursuing other ambitions, looking for other forms of prominence. This crisis makes us pay attention to things that are more dramatic than our life here. Even now that we are close to reaching an agreement on labour law, things are moving along their path.

In December, in statements to Expresso, you argued that workers should be left in peace…

That statement really caught fire... but it made sense.

Do you think that has been achieved, that workers are being left in peace?

There is no other way, is there? The ones who do the work are the workers... The UGT played an assertive role here. The economy has this very selfish side, with people who sometimes want everything for themselves. But what we need is a little humanism towards one another. We are all children of God, we all turn to dust when we enter the earth, and sometimes that dimension is somewhat lacking. Can we improve wages? Indeed we can, but the major investment needed to improve wages lies in training workers; shareholders are the ones who have the greatest interest in training workers. We make more money with well-trained workers, and then, of course, we have to pay them better.

What can you tell us about the financial health of your group? How did last year go?

Once again, and this is almost scandalous, we had our best year ever.

Why is that scandalous?

 It is scandalous in the sense that it has been like this for some years now: we have been exceeding our targets, we have more EBITDA, more net income, and far more jobs. We continue to improve wages. But on the productivity side there is still a long way to go. We have a lot of work to do. And there is the social dimension, the dimension of discipline, of pride, of doing things well, of enjoyment, of seeking beauty in everything we do, of making time for time.

I am in favour of reducing working time so that we have more hours without work, but productivity is extremely low and anyone who says otherwise is making this up. If we have eight working hours, the net amount of work cannot be five and a half hours. Better to have five and a half hours, really work, and spend the rest of the time reading, or going out with your children.

What is your relationship with the unions?

I have many board members who were once my workers, and there is a very interesting topic to discuss, which is something the Germans have, which is worker representatives elected to company boards, as at Autoeuropa. Some time ago we looked at a study on companies that had organised unions, and they are more productive. What we lack is discipline, intensity. That is one of the things I want to work on. Personally, I feel completely at ease because I have many workers around the board table, but today it almost seems as if unions have leprosy and want to destroy companies. Unions are absolutely foundational. We have a number of unionised workers and I have an excellent relationship with the Civil Construction Union. They ask to come and run sessions at the sites and they come, but people do not show up. Workers do not stop working to attend union training sessions. And from that point of view, there is something here that needs to be done. Union membership is low, so what is happening? The data shows that productivity is linked to more open and more participatory management systems.

Do you think profit is still handled badly in Portugal?

That idea of more and more and more is useless, because our capacity to consume is relative. I may want many yachts or many houses in various countries, but I can only be on one yacht at a time and in one house at a time. What bothers me more is apathy — living without ambition, without wanting to improve life, without fighting, without asserting oneself. And sometimes that meant going out into the polis, going to associations, going to unions, going to consumer protection groups, instead of staying at home, sitting there posting a like and thinking that is political positioning. Going out and voting. Choosing in your ward, in your association, everywhere — that matters much more. I do not feel that the Portuguese are envious, no, I do not feel that. But in reality I am also a worker; I feel like one of my own, one among many.

And what figures are we talking about in terms of results?

The numbers have not closed yet, but turnover is once again at its highest in almost all the companies. We have three groups, one is DST SGPS, another is Adaúfe, with companies where the workers are partners, employing more than 600 people and already generating €60 million in revenue. That is where I distribute dividends. In the spin-off that is now about to be set up, in the safety area, there are three more workers and, for the first time, and this gives me considerable pleasure, I am making a worker a partner. I take immense pleasure in that. For him it will be great. And it makes the others think, “why not me?”. Then the third group is CARI, working on urban regeneration. It is a company we bought when it was insolvent, and it also generated €71 million last year. It is restoring the São Carlos Theatre and the Dona Maria II Theatre in Lisbon.

How is the group’s international presence?

We have autonomous units in France, Belgium, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and Angola. We also export to a number of countries. Our workforce is highly competitive in areas such as electrical systems, hydraulics, HVAC and metalworking, and my international business is in areas where there is a lot of engineering and where my asset is, for example, having highly prepared people here. Today, for example, we are bidding in a consortium with Vinci for certain works in France, but we are not their subcontractors, because there is already confidence that we add value. Having the DST School is a key asset. I am not dismissing other ways of thinking, but these are our quirks, our craziness, but if someone comes to me who does not read, I get very upset.

Do you still get candidates who do not have that reading culture?

Many people do appear… but when they come for interviews, they already know this. I used to collaborate much more closely with workers because we were much smaller, but now, since we are larger, I cannot afford to lose the ability to detect talent, which is what got us here. I have a number of techniques for that, such as reading. Sometimes I see people making a presentation and I say, “I want to challenge this person”. And I need channels of access to workers because companies also tend to create barriers. One of the major debates I have here in the group is classism. There is no food for some, food for others, drink for some, drink for others, places for some, places for others. On Thursdays, I speak to workers here without their managers knowing. Nobody knows they have come to speak to me, but people need to know they can come. One thing that is taboo for me is abuse, harassment and persecution. I have a very open whistleblowing channel.

What are the main investments you are making besides the project with Norman Foster?

The factory in Figueira da Foz is a large factory, the frame factory is another major investment, and the rail hub we are building is another. There is the logistics centre in Seixal, and we have now built a logistics centre in Pombal too in order to divide up the country, and we bought a company in the central region called Prioridade, a transaction that is being reviewed by the Competition Authority. It makes roads, asphalt road surfacings... We have also set up various concrete units, concrete plants. We have a fairly diversified and sizeable investment in engineering, and many investments are currently under way. I am also doing something very interesting, which is opening offices to provide nearby workplaces. Clearly, if you are laying bricks, you have to be at the location of the works. There can be no remote work. And I am not at all a fan of remote work, but if someone from Coimbra has to come to Braga, has to rent a house, or come from Porto every day, that is difficult. So I have been opening offices in certain areas, so that people can work near home. I do not want everyone clinging to my skirts, especially since I also have people in Angola, in France, and in other places. But for me these social issues, the lived experience, that synaesthesia, is very important, and the way I solved the remote work problem was by having offices near our workers’ homes.

And what is the value of these investments?

This year we will invest around €66 million in factory buildings in Portugal. We are also expanding our facilities in Angola with a factory for metal structures, a project worth €7 million.

And is it possible to maintain the culture of the company in Angola?

It is. We have a literature prize in Angola and many other activities in the area of culture. This is always my entry point, which is, by chance, where the competition lets me in and where I feel comfortable. One of the things I would like to do in Angola is open a small bookshop. Here we have a gallery, a museum, so why not a bookshop in Angola? These are very low-cost investments, but which achieve a good level of visibility and renown, and they create empathy. Funding the publication of a book costs very little, and then I end up with some of the copies. Just on our workers alone, I buy 4000 books a year.